An Interesting Realization
I just found out something this evening that I honestly wasn't aware of. I mean, maybe I had some sort of idea or an inkling, but I never really thought about it in my conscious mind. Apparently, everyone-and that's a quote confirmed by two people- is afraid to have a religious discussion with me because I'm so blatantly atheist. That's surprising to me in a few ways. For one thing, I can't believe these people haven't experienced anyone more atheist than me. I certainly have. I mean, I know of atheists that have managed to offend me. I would hate to see them get into an argument with someone other than myself. Let's take Lori for an example. She's got no problem telling someone how stupid she thinks they are. She's my hero.
I try not to be so blatant about it. I think blatant is a better word than belligerent, but whatever. I'm not gonna sit here and say I've never questioned another individual's intelligence based on their system of beliefs, but most of that is far behind me from back when I was a fledgling and insecure secularist. Now, I try to be tolerant and open minded, but apparently I'm not being enough so. Some of you might misinterpret what I mean by open-mindedness. I don't mean that I give equal ground to all schools of thought and am malleable to any creed or philosophy. No one is like that. They may have been at one time, but not in this day and age. I'm just saying I'm willing to give anything with some solid, logical proof a chance. I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't owe anything more than that.
So, believe me folks, there are worse ones out there than me. I'm not even sure what the deal is. Why get so defensive? It makes you look insecure and unsure about your beliefs. Think about homophobics. All they are doing is putting their own sexuality in doubt by themselves and others. I'm not gonna get all hot under the collar if someone questions my beliefs. You shouldn't either. I mean, think about it, why shouldn't I take it as an attack on my beliefs every time one of you talks about God as if he/she/it were real? (Which, if you're a true God fearing type, should be every time, even when taking the name in vain) Because I know that's not what you mean to do. You should feel the same about me. Of course I'm gonna mention at some point in my life that I don't think God is real. That's my creed, or lack thereof. You shouldn't always take it personally. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what I say. It's not gonna change whether or not God is real, is it?
P.S. Those of you who have questioned my open-mindedness, by that I mean willingness to change one's views or accept the views of others, I believe I am one of a few around who has actually undergone a major change in belief structure and more than once. I am open-minded. It is unreasonable and slightly offensive to me to say that I am not. Whether you care about offending me or not is your prerogative, and of course it is my prerogative to be offended. 'Truth is the way'. I'm sure some of you have heard that quote or a variation of it. It's usually in reference to Jesus Christ being the savior of mankind. Well, I believe in that phrase as well. Not from a religious standpoint but from a life standpoint. I believe it is important to know the truth and to live the truth. At the moment, this just happens to be my truth.
P.P.S. Remember, I love you all, even you. I only argue with you because I love you and wished you understood or would try to understand my views. If I didn't give a crap about you then I wouldn't try. If I'm blatant or belligerent, it's because I care. I hope you believe that.
P.P.P.S. Disclaimer: Sometimes there are other less important or silly things I'm belligerent about. That's because sometimes I'm an ass or I'm being silly or sarcastic.
I try not to be so blatant about it. I think blatant is a better word than belligerent, but whatever. I'm not gonna sit here and say I've never questioned another individual's intelligence based on their system of beliefs, but most of that is far behind me from back when I was a fledgling and insecure secularist. Now, I try to be tolerant and open minded, but apparently I'm not being enough so. Some of you might misinterpret what I mean by open-mindedness. I don't mean that I give equal ground to all schools of thought and am malleable to any creed or philosophy. No one is like that. They may have been at one time, but not in this day and age. I'm just saying I'm willing to give anything with some solid, logical proof a chance. I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't owe anything more than that.
So, believe me folks, there are worse ones out there than me. I'm not even sure what the deal is. Why get so defensive? It makes you look insecure and unsure about your beliefs. Think about homophobics. All they are doing is putting their own sexuality in doubt by themselves and others. I'm not gonna get all hot under the collar if someone questions my beliefs. You shouldn't either. I mean, think about it, why shouldn't I take it as an attack on my beliefs every time one of you talks about God as if he/she/it were real? (Which, if you're a true God fearing type, should be every time, even when taking the name in vain) Because I know that's not what you mean to do. You should feel the same about me. Of course I'm gonna mention at some point in my life that I don't think God is real. That's my creed, or lack thereof. You shouldn't always take it personally. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what I say. It's not gonna change whether or not God is real, is it?
P.S. Those of you who have questioned my open-mindedness, by that I mean willingness to change one's views or accept the views of others, I believe I am one of a few around who has actually undergone a major change in belief structure and more than once. I am open-minded. It is unreasonable and slightly offensive to me to say that I am not. Whether you care about offending me or not is your prerogative, and of course it is my prerogative to be offended. 'Truth is the way'. I'm sure some of you have heard that quote or a variation of it. It's usually in reference to Jesus Christ being the savior of mankind. Well, I believe in that phrase as well. Not from a religious standpoint but from a life standpoint. I believe it is important to know the truth and to live the truth. At the moment, this just happens to be my truth.
P.P.S. Remember, I love you all, even you. I only argue with you because I love you and wished you understood or would try to understand my views. If I didn't give a crap about you then I wouldn't try. If I'm blatant or belligerent, it's because I care. I hope you believe that.
P.P.P.S. Disclaimer: Sometimes there are other less important or silly things I'm belligerent about. That's because sometimes I'm an ass or I'm being silly or sarcastic.
posted by Unknown | 11:27 PM
3 Comments:
Let me try to explain a couple of things here. I never said, or thought, that you were the most blatant atheist out there. I know that this is far from the truth. The thing you have to realize about what I said is that I approached the entire situation from the context of religious discussion with Christians, and in that context, you are not open minded. Yes, you've gone through major changes in belief structure. Yes, there are certainly more belligerent atheists in the world, but neither of these things are really relavent in that context. From what I've witnessed, not so much with myself, but with other people, you've been nothing but patronizing and aloof about religion. When addressing the subject directly, it is very possible to have a logical, tolerant discussion, but the rest of the time, you're more like your hero, telling people their beliefs are silly, laughing at them. Maybe to you, this is open minded. To me, it's belligerent, which is okay with me. I'm not open minded about religion. I've long since weighed my beliefs. I have no problem with people who have firm convictions and stand by them, but I don't think they should go around preaching open-mindedness while they behave otherwise.
You know it's not going to offend me if you question my beliefs. It doesn't make them any less true in my eyes. But you must realize that people are going to be defensive about their beliefs; they think you're wrong just as you think they're wrong, and they want to win the arguement. Scientific evidence for God does not exist; the existance of God is a question of personal faith and experience. If it's a scientific discussion you're talking about, you're going to win every time. Both sides of the arguement know that, so people get defensive.
Basically, what I'm saying is that you shouldn't insult people's beliefs, then be surprised when they call you belligerent. Insults are not open minded, they're not part of logical discussion; they're mean. I understand your beliefs, or at least I should. We've been down that road a number of times, all logical discussions if memory serves. Just realize that the things you say outside of those discussions reflect on you just as much as, and maybe more than the discussions themselves.
Wow, I leave for a few days and everyone gets so damn philisophical. Star Wars comes out, before long it is no longer talked about.. and then we have Blog Wars, which never get old.
Hehehahahaw..
About this matter (yes, I can relate to the damn material, too!), I believe we should all have a deep religious discussion one evening. Seriously, no more hiding behind the face of Blog when it comes to this matter. I think we can all benefit from this and we all, obviously, have something to say on the matter.
What a perfect time in our lives to try out our new 'adulthood' maturities. Let's nail it with this discussion, eh? I'll even convince Jen to come up and speak of her views (hopefully she will learn moreso how to argue than what to argue about...but that's a whole 'nother sto.....).
So whatd'ya all say?
My response to Shawn:: I can't argue worth a damn, Sean can vouche for that:
"(00:33:32) Sean: the arguments you put up just aren't as convincing as others
(00:33:36) Elizabeth: I'd rather preach with kindness and understanding that quotes.
(00:33:42) Elizabeth: so?
(00:35:30) Sean: it's hard to have a logical argument if I feel like the counter examples and whatnot don't strike a blow. You just make me feel like I'm more right and that the bottom is falling out from under you but you persist.
(00:36:37) Sean: it almost feels like you let me win, but lose at the same time because the whole discussion is for naught and I look and feel like tha ass hole
(00:39:31) Sean: I mean, what is the point of philosophy and science if no everyone just looks at whatever evidence is found and shrugs and goes on believing whatever they believed in before? not even that, but gets angry or upset that someone had the audacity to say anything at all? what if everyone continued to claim that the world was flat even though we fly around it every day?"
I don't really feel like a discussion simply because arguing is stupid, but I suppose I can attend anyhow.
To Everyone:: Einstien is awesome: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
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